PicoBlog

VANCOUVER – Cold Virginia sunshine cuts across Tom Breihan’s face as he answers my FaceTime call. He’s seated at a desk in his home office, where I picture his long frame hunched over the laptop, reviewing and reporting on the most popular songs of years past, and just about everything else, too (his recurring Stereogum column, The Number Ones, recently turned five; it’s a 10). Like yours truly, Tom exists as a musical omnivore, equally as likely to subsist of Jay-Z and boygenius as he is Rancid or The Pogues (R.I.P. Shane). Our conversation, which has been edited and condensed for clarity, was equally varied, touching on his life as a 7-foot-tall man, his first acid trip, beefing at Taylor Swift’s Eras tour, our favourite snacks, and how he’s become an occasional meme for the Stereogum community. 

The day before the call, Tom and I both had to cancel at the last minute. He was dealing with car trouble, and I was helping Leah, who was suddenly ill. And so the conversation starts there.

“How are you doing?” he asks, from the other side of the continent.

TB: Is everything all good after yesterday?

ES: Oh, yeah, all good… I’m not sure what health care’s like in Virginia but we don’t have a family doctor so whenever we get sick we have to hit the walk-in, but they’re always lined up out the door. It’s a logistical nightmare.

TB: That sucks. I was carpooling my kid and his buddy to the bus stop, because they usually ride to school from there, but they missed the bus and I had to drive them the whole way. I also had to drop the car off at the mechanic. It was a chaotic situation. But I’m glad we both needed to cancel at the same time.

ES: It was a relief, to be honest. I should ask: how’s the car?

TB: I haven’t heard the estimate, but it’s probably not good. Apparently the brake pads are totally gone. Just totally worn out. It’s gonna be there a minute.

ES: What kind of car are you driving?

TB: It’s a Mercedes-Benz ML 350 from 2011; I am owner number three.

ES: Are you a German car guy?

TB: Not really. When our last car died, my wife said “Why don’t we go test drive some of these?” Like, okay. Then we did it and I was like “Oh, yeah, I wanna do this.”

ES: It’s always good to have a life-partner who has taste and is willing to push your boundaries so you aren’t driving off the lot in minivan number two.

TB: It would have been minivan number five for us, but yes exactly.

ES: Damn bro, life comes at you fast. You’re on the record as being a pretty tall glass of water. Is it hard for you to get comfortable in the Benz? I have to imagine travel is a bit of a nightmare for you.

TB: Oh it sucks. It always sucks. We got the Benz when our kids were a lot smaller. Now all four of us can’t fit in the car at the same time because I’ve gotta push the driver seat back so far. It’s a mini SUV so I can fit in it just fine, but only if there’s negative room behind me. Like 5 inches of room for whoever’s sitting there.

ES: When did you have your growth spurt? Were you 7-feet-tall at age 15?

TB: I’ve always been tall, it wasn’t a sudden thing. The last time there was a kid in my class that was my height was back in second grade… The last time I had a teacher taller than me was in fifth grade.

ES: Unreal. 

TB: Yeah, it’s outlandish. I’ve met people my height less than 10 times in my life.

ES: Usually when you hear about a tall boy he becomes a basketball player or a pro-wrestler or something. Not a music writer. How did you end up here?

TB: I was never remotely physically capable of anything. I played basketball but it was frustrating because I didn’t like it that much. I like it way more now that I don’t play. I was not an organized sports kid. Not being instantly or immediately better than other kids was frustrating… I never had any type of full court vision. I had a basic idea of what I was supposed to do and I did that in the most desultory way. Everything felt like a chore.

In ninth grade, I took my first and only acid trip. We had a game the next day. I was so miserable on the court, I fouled out on purpose so I could leave the game. Like, clotheslining people so I didn’t have to play anymore. I was not a model student athlete.

ES: How was that first trip? Is there a reason you only did it once?

TB: I was with my friends in Baltimore and we were sitting around listening to Marilyn Manson’s Portrait of an American Family, as you do. I don’t know what the fuck we were thinking. There’s this bit at the end of the album where these creepy deep voices came in and it really freaked me out. The vibe was off.

ES: But you’re into basketball now? NBA? NCAA?

TO: NBA. I can’t get excited about college sports at all. I’m the most casual NBA fan, I barely pay attention. But it feels different when players are able to establish roots in a city and you feel like you have a connection to them. Although the Washington Wizards have been ass for as long as I’ve been paying attention. I don’t know, I can’t wrap my head around the college sports landscape. I went to a D1 school, I live in a town with another D1 school. The schedule doesn’t make any sense, the way the tournaments are structured doesn’t compute. It just hasn’t captured my imagination in any way at all. I love that people get fired up about it, but it’s not for me.

ES: It’s interesting considering how into music you are. As an adult, I’ve realized the world of music, and to a lesser extent entertainment, can be unapproachable for some people. But guys like us are able to track tour routings and chart positions.

TB: Maybe it’s a brain chemistry thing, or nature versus nurture. It’s also interesting when music overlaps with these worlds I have no concept of. I’m a few hours away from Virginia Tech and they have their ‘Enter Sandman’ thing.

ES: What is that?

TB: Before every football game Virginia Tech plays ‘Enter Sandman.’ This is in Roanoke, VA and that’s the only shit that’s happening there. They have a stadium that’s maybe bigger than an NFL stadium? And they’ll get 80,000 people jumping around to ‘Enter Sandman’ while they’re waiting for the team to run out. There’s videos of it and it looks incredible. How does this happen 16 times a year, and it’s bigger than a Metallica show and it happens in Roanoke? 

The same thing happens with ‘Jump Around’ in Wisconsin, I think, and those videos are insane to look at too… I can’t understand the structure surrounding college sports but this experience looks so lit. I’ve been to UVA games here in Charlottesville and the energy is off the charts. It’s cool to see.

ES: It’s interesting because I assume the people in the arena are experiencing Metallica in a completely different context than you or I are experiencing them. These kids might only know this one song and they might only know it from sports. There isn’t the same cerebral baggage of knowing this song was on the Black Album and how it was the band’s mainstream breakthrough.

TB: Yeah they aren’t thinking “Oh this is where they ditched thrash metal entirely and blew up.” Metallica was my first show, on The Black Album. That’s about as simple of an experience as you can have; being 12-years-old and seeing them play ‘Enter Sandman’ when the song is still new. But it’s not the same as a college sports fan would experience it.

Sorry, I’m looking for snacks while I talk to you.

ES: By all means. What kind of snacks do we have on lock right now?

TB: I don’t know. I thought I had trail mix left but I’m not seeing it in the cupboard. Everything is piled haphazardly so I’m worried I’m going to start an avalanche if I dig too deep.

ES: Where do you get your family-sized snacks? Costco?

TB: We’ve got a Trader Joe’s here. When I first moved to Charlottesville there was no Trader Joe’s and now there is. Its arrival was a cultural event. Oh I guess I have pistachios. That will have to do.

But yeah, Trader Joe’s has a great snack selection. If you’re looking for dinner it’s not the same. But they’ll have their imitation Reese’s cups. They’re made of dark chocolate and they’re super well made. They’re probably too expensive but you have one and it ruins all regular Reese’s cups for you. Like, why the fuck would anyone eat this garbage when Trader Joe’s is so much better?

ES: I love their mini peanut butter cups. The ones that come in that little tub.

TB: Yeah man, that’s exactly what I’m talking about! I’ll eat the whole tub in one sitting.

ES: Are you more of a grazer or are you a sit down meal guy?

TB: More of a grazer. I try to be a sit down meal guy because I have kids. I try to build my day around it and build a rhythm. But when the kids go to bed I will totally put on a movie and just inhale the most disgusting shit. My habits aren’t good; the kids have picked them up too.

ES: Is that a journalist thing you think? Or how you’ve always been?

TB: It’s how I’ve always been. Do you think that’s a journalist thing? Grazing? I feel like it’s not.

ES: I feel like it’s a journalist thing to have unhealthy habits and keep odd hours. Just operating outside of society. Laughs.

TB: Yeah on the rare occasions where I have to be out reporting or whatever, I’ll be like “Holy shit I haven’t eaten in 16 hours.” I’m terrible at planning things. Like, “I didn’t give myself enough time so I guess I’ll eat whatever they have at this Mobil gas station convenience store.” I took my daughter to see Taylor Swift and did not think about food options at all. Not one bit. There wasn’t much that could be done, you’re kind of stuck eating whatever’s at the stadium because you’re there for eight hours. 

ES: Does Stereogum expense your food when you travel, at least?

TB: I think I did expense the Wawa we got on the way up. Stereogum’s such a small operation, it’s not like when it was owned by those bigger companies. At that point there was a whole expense system to go through. Now there’s only four of us and I just email Scott [Lapatine] like “Alright here’s what I paid.” I hardly ever travel for work anyways but he’s good about it.

ES: How was Taylor Swift? I have to imagine you might be the tallest dad she’s ever seen.

TB: I don’t think she saw me, but it was fucking awesome. It was great. I wrote about it. But the height thing did become a problem. Taylor’s PR people hooked me up and I did not know until we got there that they had us down on the floor. My daughter just turned 14 and she’s probably 6’1”. We’re in the middle of this row and I was thinking “Fuck, we’re going to be standing in front of somebody who paid $2000 and we’re going to ruin their night. What can I do?” The show was in Philadelphia and it just so happened that a guy from Philadelphia Magazine recognized me. He walked up and introduced himself. Him and his wife had seats on the edge of the row. So I asked him to switch spots with us, so I could maybe stand in the aisle. He was cool about it, but then we wound up sitting in front of this one lady who was seething. She was shaking, furious, that I would be in front of her. She tried to get me and my daughter kicked out of the Taylor Swift show. Not moved – thrown out of the building!

ES: No!

TB: So the security people pulled me aside and we had a confab about it. They said I could stand in the aisle. But that show is such a massive undertaking, sometimes random security guards, who were not privy to our confab, would come around and tell me not to stand in the aisle. It made it hard to get into the show because I was constantly thinking about this fucking shit and this asshole sitting behind me and these weird rules and is it going to make my daughter more self-conscious about her own height? It’s something I’ve been dealing with my whole life, I don’t want her to feel weird about it.

When we had our confab the lady behind us apparently went to the Philadelphia Magazine guy and told him “It’s alright you can go back to your seat now, I got them kicked out.” As if she had done something good for society. She was surprised when everyone was like “What are you talking about? What a shitty thing to do?”

ES: That is such a nightmare. I’m sorry you had to deal with that, I didn’t think that question would elicit an actual story!

TB: Yeah man, the height thing is something I deal with. When we got back to our seats I was definitely like “Sorry motherfucker!” Trying to dunk on her ass.

ES: We love Taylor Swift here at Human Pursuits, I would go to the Eras tour tomorrow if I had tickets, but one thing I find odd is that it does seem to foster a level of entitlement that you don’t necessarily see at other shows. The access is so driven by financials and it puts the show in a weird context. Like, if someone mortgages their house to see her, it injects a bad vibe into the show. It’s so high pressure.

TB: Did you go to the show? 

ES: No, she’s coming to Vancouver after teasing us for two fucking years but the pre-sale was a blood bath.

TB: The whole experience was awesome. I was looking around on the Taylor Swift subreddit and there’s fans talking about how they’re so emotionally invested in getting to the show that they don’t remember anything that happened during the performance. The whole thing becomes an amnesiac blur to them. That’s sad, I don’t like to hear that.

That one negative interaction aside, there was a palpable sense of community and excitement, that I haven’t gotten from other stadium shows. Here’s a group of people who are on the same page, who are equally into this and devoted to it. Everybody’s got costumes, it’s the big event of the year for everyone there. It’s really cool to be in that environment, because it is a big deal. I fucking love Taylor Swift.

ES: I do too. I’m so happy we’re aligned on that. I’ve seen her twice but not since she started touring stadiums.

TB: It was my first time.

ES: I’m guessing you haven’t seen the movie, then, but even that was great. She’s so talented.

TB: The show is amazing. It’s truly astonishing. Especially when you’re there and you can feel the cumulative effect of standing there and singing along for three hours. I was dead ass exhausted by the end.

ES: What’s your favourite Taylor Swift song?

TB: In the lead up to the show, me and my kid were like “Alright we need to make top 10 lists of our favourite songs and compare them.” I think ‘Long Live’ or ‘Getaway Car’ was my number one. I think it was ‘Long Live.’

ES: Damn, that’s a bit of an underrated selection for number one.

TB: I’m bummed she added ‘Long Live’ to the set after our date. That song makes me tear up. It’s her calling her shot, saying she’s going to be out here doing legendary shit with the people in her band. Like, “We’re going to be doing things that people are talking about years from now.” And then she did that shit! She wrote that when she was 21 and six albums later she’s Michael Jackson. She’s bigger than music! 

What would your picks be?

ES: It changes day-to-day but the song I would really want to see is ‘Champagne Problems’. I think lyrically it’s maybe her best song.

TB: Those folklore and evermore songs really do translate in a stadium, too. When that era first happened I wondered if she was done playing stadiums because it seemed like the material wasn’t geared towards that setting. But she’s built a whole production around them. They sound awesome.

ES: I was so excited about those albums during the pandemic, it would also be a full circle moment and probably give me some sort of closure.

TB: It’s weird that that’s a thing but it totally is.

ES: I don’t know if you find this, but ever since COVID, I find the experience of going to a concert so emotional. The novelty of being in a crowd and experiencing art with other people hasn’t worn off. It even happened a little bit at the Renaissance tour, which is really supposed to be a big party.

TB: I didn’t get to that tour, so I’m jealous. 

ES: It was great. Maybe that’s where all our luck went this year. It was really incredible. My only issue was that the show has a bit of a weird flow. She opened with four slow songs back to back. It was weird.

TB: And those songs apparently are not in the movie.

ES: Really?

TB: Yeah apparently she took them out. 

ES: I do appreciate that she was basically flexing for the whole show. Her vocals were amazing, she’s one of the best singers ever. But there was also a lot of down time. Like, she would leave the stage and there would be some random music playing. Maybe it was more fun in Club Renaissance.

But it was definitely a bucket list concert for me. I needed to see her live at least once.

TB: I’ve seen her come out as a surprise guest at a few Jay-Z shows but I’ve never seen her where it’s her own show. 

ES: Are you a big Jay-Z guy?

TB: Oh yeah. 

ES: Which albums?

TB: Basically everything pre-retirement but especially Vol. 3.

ES: I’ve never heard that one.

TB: Ah! I’m sure you had to be there for some of it. The summer after it came out was when I moved to New York for the first time. I remember walking around with my Sony Walkman, or maybe it was a discman, and thinking “I’m in Brooklyn - this shit feels amazing!” He was the king of the city then.

A few years later, in 2005, I moved back to the city and I would see every Jay-Z show in New York that I could. That was when he was fake retired. He was still doing shows regularly and they always felt like super special events. It was so cool to be in a crowd that’s right there for him. Everybody knows the words, everybody is psyched. He would always bring out surprise guests. I haven’t seen him live for maybe 10 years but I love Jay-Z shows.

ES: I think I’ve seen him twice. Once on Watch The Throne and then again when he did that tour with Justin Timberlake. I have to imagine that that second show was a little different from your experience with the rats and roaches. It was pretty safe.

TB: I mean most of the shows I saw were in arenas or whatever. But there was a little more connection. The first time I saw him he brought out The LOX and Beanie Seagal and Sauce Money and they performed ‘Reservoir Dogs’ together. He was like “Everybody's gonna have to tuck their chains right now.” I thought yeah, we’re playing the razor to your face music right now.

ES: That’s so funny. Let’s say The LOX did not make an appearance in Toronto that night.

One thing I love about you is that you have such eclectic taste. Have you always been an omnivore where it comes to chunes?

TB: For the most part. In high school I considered myself a punk and didn’t listen to much outside of that genre. I would make mental bargains with myself. I would tell myself “Wu-Tang Clan’s not punk but they have the attitude…” I don’t know why I felt they need to justify it to myself. Like, buddy it’s 1995, why would you not be into Wu-Tang? It would be so stupid to talk yourself out of it. But most of what I was listening to was in the Rancid extended universe. 

Over time that changed. By the time I graduated high school I was reading SPIN magazine and that's who I was. I’ve seen people get the same way about Pitchfork. Chris DeVille from Stereogum has told me he used to be a Pitchfork nerd. He would buy every album that got Best New Music. I was writing for Pitchfork then and wasn’t into most of that shit at all. But that’s how I felt about late 90’s SPIN.

Eventually, though, I hit a point where, if I feel something listening to the music, or if I get fired up or energized, then it’s worth something. So yeah, I’ve been open to listening to anything for 25 years now.

ES: On the topic of the Rancid extended universe. Dan Ozzi mentioned there’s rumours of an Operation Ivy reunion - do you think that’s happening?

Dan Ozzi is a writer who photographs.

TB: I don’t know. It has happened to an extent. Jesse and Tim have done a couple songs together. They have a new band, which has one single out … I don’t remember what they’re called. I could easily see a situation where Operation Ivy headlined Riot Fest or whatever. I don’t know if I want that, or if I care enough. 

Did you know the last Op-Ivy show, the one they played at Gilman Street in 1989, is on YouTube? Did you know this?

ES: I did not!

TB: Somebody brought a camcorder in and it’s uploaded there like it’s a hatefivesix video. And it’s awesome! They’re all kids. They never got famous but that room was their home and everyone in the building is on board for the Op-Ivy experience. If they get back together and play Riot Fest when they’re 62 years old, it’s not going to be the same. I would probably try to get there - look into flights and all that shit - but I don’t know if I need that.

ES: I feel like we as a society need to cool it a little bit on the nostalgia concerts. I know When We Were Young Festival got some blowback for that 50 Full Albums gimmick because it’s like 99% white cis presenting men.

TB: There’s like two albums being played at that festival that I’ve ever owned. There’s maybe five that I’ve actually listened to. That shit is so not for me. Like, alright, go do your thing. I do not care. Money talks I guess. There’s always been an oldies circuit but we’re in a weird moment where old music is more popular than new music. Catalogue streaming is big business for Spotify and it’s lead to the whole industry to rebuild itself to sell old things instead of new things. Concerts especially feel that way. Even the Eras tour is, on some level, a nostalgia thing. Taylor is selling herself as a legacy act who is also the biggest star in the world right now. And I’m not immune to nostalgia. I saw Rancid one or two years ago and I would see them tomorrow. But nostalgia can’t be the driving force.

ES: We should talk about Number Ones in some capacity here. Not to bring it back to Taylor, but I wanted to ask you about ‘Cruel Summer’ and the fact that it charted so many years after it was released as a single. Is that at all common?

TB: Okay so there was a thing that happened in the late 80’s where, I think, one radio programmer in Arizona would go through the songs he was being pushed, and sometimes, instead of playing that song, he would push an older single. He did it with UB40 and ‘Red Red Wine’. That song was four or five years old at that point. It had charted but it had only been a minor hit. But then he put it back into circulation, people started calling, other stations started playing it, the label pressed new copies and sent it out. And it went to number one.

He did the same thing with this Canadian band Sheriff. They were like a fake Journey type band. I don’t remember the name of their song but he did the same thing. The band had broken up and the song went to number one. So there is a precedent for this. But now, the way music is consumed, people do not distinguish between old and new music… Things like a random Miguel song from his first album catching fire on TikTok and going on to become his highest charting song ever, that is new. When Taylor and Jack Antonoff say they didn’t do anything to push the song, I’m not sure that’s entirely true. I think there’s mechanisms behind the scenes to start working the song to radio or whatever. But fans are deciding what is the hit and what isn’t. The same thing happened with Lil Uzi Vert and ‘XO Tour Lif3’... It’s really fascinating to me. I’m not sure it’s a sign of a healthy music industry, but it’s really interesting to see.

The corollary to that is that fans can also demote songs in a way. Like, when 1989 (Taylor’s Version) came out, all the songs charted again but ‘Shake It Off’ was nowhere near the biggest song of the bunch. It was middle of the pack, which is so different from what happened when it was initially released… The goals that Taylor might have had when she released that song are no longer relevant to the way the music business functions. There’s no pop mainstream anymore, or if there is, it’s a weird patchwork of fan groups. Songs can still crossover, but it requires a base with a passionate drive behind it.

ES: Last week, Stereogum dropped the holiday cover story with boygenius, and named them its inaugural Artist of the Year. I want to know, are you more of a Phoebe, more of a Julien, or more of a Lucy?

TB: Julien all day.

ES: I knew you’d say that.

TB: She is my favourite. I love all three of them. Lucy grew up about an hour from where I live. I’ve met her dad, and she’s the tall one, so there’s a respect there. But I heard Sprained Ankle just before it came out and thought “Fucking hell, holy shit!” I’ve been on board ever since. And it’s been so cool to see someone go from little rooms to big rooms like that. I interviewed her when Turn Out The Lights dropped, we walked around Charlottesville and got pizza together. She was delightful, just an incredibly nice human-being. 

My daughter has gotten really into boyngenius recently. We went to the All Things Go festival in Maryland last month. We were mostly going for Lana but they played before her, and since then she’s been drawing pictures of the band and looking up interviews and videos. They’ve fully captured her imagination. And she’s more of a Lucy.

I think it’s awesome to see. I think the album is fantastic, I don’t like it quite as much as the EP, but just seeing it happen for them is great. I understand the backlash, how it can seem middlebrow or hyped up, but I feel such unambiguous warmth for all of these people… I’m team boygenius.

ES: Last question: Stereogum is one of the few music websites that does a comment round up every week. Is there a notorious, or even iconic comment, that has become a legend with the staff? I’m thinking something like Pitchfork’s review of Jet’s second album, for example.

TB: Among the Stereogum community, I’ve had a couple of responses to people that have become memes over the years. Like, I wrote a review of some Chairlift album for our weekly column eight years ago. Someone asked about it and I responded “I’ve heard it.” That was all I said. Now, anytime I don’t like a piece of music, people reference that. It’s become a running joke among this hyper niche online community. There’s been a few things like that and it’s fun when it happens. It’s funny, I’m not famous. Nobody knows who I am. I get to be a participant in the music critic discourse, which is all I ever wanted, but when that occasionally happens it’s a reminder that people actually read the things I write. It’s a privilege and an honour to be part of anybody’s daily routine like that.

Tom Breihan is Senior Editor at Stereogum. He lives in Charlottesville, VA. His book, The Numbers Ones, is available now via Hatchette.

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